主题:【分享】重新再学一遍 : Numerical Values

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poorlittle
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最近, 发觉自己对一些基本概念其实不很明白, 要从新再学一遍了。  以下是学习後的一些记录:

Numerical Values

There are three different kinds of numerical values:

(a)  Exact (精确) terminating values : These are expressed to as many figures as are required to give the complete values, without approximation or uncertainty.

Example 1 : 1 inch = 25.4 mm; 25.4 is an exact value 基于国际公认
Example 2 : interest rate = 1.3%; 1.3% is an exact value 基于协议
Example 3 : I have 10 fingers; 10 is an exact value
基于准确点算

(b)  Inexact decimal expressions for exactly defined numbers : These numbers can be expressed with any desired accuracy by taking sufficient figures.  Many values having a purely mathematical basis fall into this category.

Example 4 : 1/3,  e, π

(c)  Inexact (非精确) values : Figures which are subject to inherent limitations of accuracy.  Experimentally determined values fall into this category.

Example 5 : The steel rod is 132.2 mm; 132.2 is an inexact value as the length may be 132.23 mm if a more precise instrument was used in the measurement.

= = = = =

Because of the uncertainty of inexact values, there are rules of arithmetic operation for the inexact values with reference to their number of significant figures.

Example 6 : 11111.111 + 1.1 = 11112.2  (1 decimal place)
Example 7 : 11111.111 × 2.2 = 24444.4442 = 2.4 × 104 (2 significant figures)


However, these rules are not applicable to the arithmetic operation of exact values, 不能胡乱套用。

(正在想, 测试标准中的极限数值, 或称界限值, 是否Exact value)

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影子
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有些概念确实需要好好学习,常常以为自己很明白,可是当给别人解释的时候才知道自己原来只是一知半解
poorlittle
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同感。
  以上资料我十年前已看过, 现在重新再学一遍, 又有新体会。


Why the concept of Exact Value and Inexact Value is important?  Here is my experience:

I know that the average of 0.13, 0.25, 0.19, 0.32,0.41 is

(0.13+0.25+0.19+0.32+0.41)/5=0.26

I would not report that the average = 0.3 by taking into account of the number of significant figure of 5 (i.e. n.s.f.=1 for the number 5), but I did not know the reason in the past.  Now, I know that 5 is an exact value, so the rules of arithmetic operation for significant figures do not apply.

(There is another opinion that although 5 is an exact value, if the concept of significant figure must be imposed on it, 5 has infinite number of significant figures, i.e. 5=5.0000……00000)

I am thinking whether the limiting value (极限值, 或称界限值) specified in the testing standard is an exact value.  If it is an exact value, I need not consider the number of significant values when I report the measured value, only consider the precision as indicated by the limiting value.

: 极限值=0.030%, 测定值=0.1573%

My opinion:

(1)  不认为0.030%是一个有2位有效数字的数, because it is an exact value
(2)  0.030%显示了精度要求为千分位

Therefore:

(A)  我不会报0.16%, 這会損失精度, 亦与有效数字的概念无关(see (1) above)
(B)  我也不会报0.1573%, 这会太长而无助于判定是否合格

我会报0.157%
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2010/6/11 15:53:09 Last edit by poorlittle
闲鹤野云
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poorlittle
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Inexact value significant figure, I think that significant figure is one of the attributes of inexact value.  I am still studying this subject and unable make the precise definitions for them.  Perhaps, the following example may illustrate their difference:

If the population of a city is 1.030×106 in government survey record and when it is printed as 1030000 in the newspaper, I would have the following description about the value 1030000:

1030000 is an inexact value (人口统计时是以千为单位的, 不会精确至几百几十的)

1030000 是一个7位数

1030000 具有4位有效数字

1030000 1,0,3,0 是有效数字, 最右的三个0是定位0

我似乎在鑽牛角尖, 但我的工作之一是计量, 对一些有关数字的基本概念不能不理啊。 

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2010/6/24 9:59:24 Last edit by poorlittle
happy王子矜
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最近要新写一个关于修约的SOP,有两个参考,一个是国标,注重有效数字,标准多少有效数字就多少位数(我们以前就这么干);一个是国外某企业的SOP,注重仪器和方法本身的精度,打算倾向后者。但是这么写的话,又牵涉到仪器方法的相关SOP里面的内容,工程比较大。犹豫不决中。
影子
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原文由 王蒹葭(wangzijin) 发表:
最近要新写一个关于修约的SOP,有两个参考,一个是国标,注重有效数字,标准多少有效数字就多少位数(我们以前就这么干);一个是国外某企业的SOP,注重仪器和方法本身的精度,打算倾向后者。但是这么写的话,又牵涉到仪器方法的相关SOP里面的内容,工程比较大。犹豫不决中。


以我的经验,可以在这个修约的SOP中用一句话规定:所有修约的程序以本SOP为准。
仪器方法的相关SOP以后再逐步修订。
poorlittle
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原文由 王蒹葭(wangzijin) 发表:
一个是国标,注重有效数字,标准多少有效数字就多少位数(我们以前就这么干);一个是国外某企业的SOP,注重仪器和方法本身的精度


标准多少有效数字就多少位数?

The problem is how do you interpret “”.  In the past month, I studied the “significant figure” again and found that there are two meanings of “”, i.e. number and place.  Example:

(A)  0.00235 : 3有效数字 (number of significant figures = 3)

(B)  0.00235 : 精确至小数後5 (5 decimal places)

http://bbs.instrument.com.cn/shtml/20100608/2599734/ 中提到药典明确规定了结果的有效位数要和标准一致啊!!”,  这个位数要和标准一致中的位数应是(B)“place”.  If this interpretation is accepted, there is no difference between 国标 and 国外某企业的SOP(GB/T 8170-2008 Clause 4.3.3.1中用的字是数位一致, my interpretation is “in agreement with the places of the limiting value”)

I am writing a notes about the Significant Figure, and really really want to know the exact wording in 中国药典

= = = = = =

My suggestion to your SOP about rounding is “the rounding of the measured value should be in agreement with the limiting value” 轻轻带过, 留有演译的余地;

or more specific “the rounding of the measured value should be in agreement with the places of the limiting value” so as to be in line with GB/T 8170-2008 Clause 4.3.3.1

or “in accordance with xxxxxx unless otherwise specified”
happy王子矜
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恩,谢谢微寒老师的建议。其实我现在面对的与其说是数字的修约问题,不如说是数据报告习惯的问题。除了对外的药品企业外,我看到的一般情况就是,仪器检测出多少数据就是多少。比如,一个液相检测杂质报告0.0005%,实际情况是,这个仪器或方法根本没有这样的检出限,但是如果你报告<0.01%(假设检出限是0.01%),领导就不认可。非得让你写个确切的数字。

我们现在的规定是:按照有效数字的位数,检测标准有多少位,结果就报告多少位,如果有100%或0的情况,就往下多保留一位,直至不为100%或0为止.没提检出限这回事。

另:微寒老师的论坛内另外个帖子的链接,我的google浏览器打开后,每次点关闭这个页面,浏览器就崩溃一次。
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2010/6/24 14:14:36 Last edit by wangzijin
poorlittle
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A quantitative result sometimes or to some extent would become a qualitative indication

领导要照顾一些非专业客户(或专业客户的非专业领导), 让报告填上数字, 令报告看起来有根有据, 亦无可厚非。  行内人会明白, any value below the detection limit is only an indication.  An indication of 非常非常少的杂质。



( “飞流直下三千尺”, 这个三千不是真的quantitative value of 3000, but a qualitative indication of 高。  所以, 能科学地出一份报告固然好, 若要报一个小于检出限的数值作为indication, 也不是不能自园其说的。)
happy王子矜
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因为能自圆其说,所以才能坚持这么久啊。还好我是另起炉灶,不然的话还要担心伤及领导颜面的问题,哈哈。

我初步打算严格按照仪器/方法的检出限出报告了,这样被客户审计的时候轻松点。至于领导不满意就不管了,现在没有直接领导关系了。

其实,也不能说我们的客户不专业,就我的观察,日本人比较喜欢你有多少位就写多少位,一个GC方法堂而皇之的写个位数的ppm结果,欧美客户更喜欢检出限之外的就报<xxx
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2010/6/24 23:18:03 Last edit by wangzijin
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